Sandra – Welcome everyone. After successfully running the leaders cafe in India, we are excited to inaugurate The Leaders’ Cafe in Australia today. In our Leaders’ Cafe Live series we were credibly excited to welcome a guest speaker who came to Australia as a young refugee and broke several shackles to emerge as a leader in the typically male dominated banking industry. We are speaking with Ana Marinkovic, Executive General Manager small business bank at NAB. Can you share some of the highlights that brought you the way you are today?

Ana – Sandra, my experience may not be unique, as I’ve met many who left their countries for various reasons. My childhood was idyllic until it suddenly turned into chaos. I left home at 12 and reunited with my parents much later. This journey taught me that life’s titles, possessions, and social standing are transient, but resilience, impactful choices, and helping others endure.

It’s also taught me the value of authenticity, both in personal and corporate life. Authenticity is the foundation of trust and loyalty. So, my journey over the past few decades has been filled with invaluable lessons.

Sandra  – One thing that resonated a lot with me, it was initially a little bit of a shock, but that resonated with me is the line that you say it’s okay not to belong. And, you know, we talk a lot especially in organizations about belonging as the foundation of actually being true, inclusive and getting people to feel safe to speak. And here, I’m listening to you as a woman leader who travels the mile and said, You know what, it’s not okay to belong.Would you like to share a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Ana  – I’ve had various reactions to my differences. I’ve mastered the art of not belonging and fully accept it. I understand that my unique experiences, accent, and perspective won’t change. These aspects define my identity more than my CV does.

“In boardrooms, I’ve faced comments about my fashion, assertiveness, honesty, and even suggestions to change my name, soften my accent, or develop a taste for wine. But these are just labels. Over time, I’ve learned to focus on feedback about my work, strategy, leadership, and not let the noise affect me. It’s become a survival tactic that’s served me well.”

Sandra  –  Sometimes, I’m reminded of the many stories that play in our heads when we’re talking to clients and coaches. We often compare ourselves to others or try to fit in or emulate someone else. I often think of horse races, where the fastest horses wear blinders. It’s liberating to focus on our goals and not get caught up in the chatter of belonging.

But there’s also the reality of being a woman from a multicultural background. I’ve faced challenges from questions about my name not matching my appearance to comments on my accent. There were times when I was the only multicultural woman in a leadership forum, and some suggested hiring people who looked different to represent stakeholders. Despite these challenges, I’ve continued to stand up for what I believe in and push forward.

There are also articles like HRD recently talking about discrimination based on accidents, where career opportunities are mixed, missed by equally qualified candidates with non standard accents and even more pronounced for women. Another article in a financial review that talks about how job seekers in Australia with ethnic names are 57% less likely to be considered for leadership roles. What do you feel even if it’s unconscious based, it needs to be systemic discrimination by organizations against diverse professionals? What are your thoughts?

Ana – In the Australian corporate landscape, upper management and board levels often lack diversity, reflecting a reality we face. Moreover, in my role overseeing millions of small businesses, I encounter expectations about a certain executive prototype. Being an ethnic banker in a predominantly male, monolithic industry presents unique challenges, not only in the workplace but also with customers.

Unconscious bias is pervasive. For instance, a customer assumed I had conflicted feelings about Ukraine due to my appearance and accent, highlighting how perceptions can lead to misconceptions. Another customer asked to change my sender name in a newsletter, citing stereotypes. These biases are deeply ingrained.

Addressing this issue requires collective effort, ongoing attention, and a focus on diversity in positions of power to drive change effectively.

Sandra – What’s the situation right now in corporate Australia in making inclusion real?

“Ana On Making Inclusion Real  – There have been positive strides toward inclusion and diversity, and I see it extending beyond just the male-female binary. There’s significant progress, with organizations realizing that diversity isn’t a mere preference; it’s a necessity. This shift is driven by social responsibility and the need to better connect with our customer base for improved commercial outcomes.

However, progress isn’t happening as swiftly as it should, especially in a multicultural country like Australia. Some agenda items may take precedence, which affects the pace of progress.”

Sandra  – I often also see when you’re talking about this case, as women being champions of diversity, equity inclusion, they’re either the leaders talking to running these forums, where do you see male allyship coming to this picture What would you recommend, say your senior male colleagues to do in organizations to support more inclusivity?

Ana  – I believe in consciously looking beyond gender, cultural heritage, or skin color when evaluating individuals. It’s everyone’s responsibility to promote meritocracy and uplift talented, hardworking people, regardless of their background. Both men and women share the responsibility in this regard.

In my own career, I’ve received substantial support, advice, mentorship, and sponsorship from some male colleagues and leaders. Women supporting women is an important aspect of this agenda. While we often discuss men supporting women, it’s equally vital for women to view each other as allies rather than competitors and work together to advance this cause.

Sandra – In the last few years, I’ve seen the shift happen on women supporting women, or at least the shift disrupting, and I’m pretty happy looking at that shift. What else can we do to support each other?  Besides you mentoring, coaching, what else can we do to together rise in this situation?

“Ana On Women Supporting Women – I recently came across a perspective that strongly resonated with me: “Women are over-mentored and under-promoted.” It makes sense when you objectively assess the situation. The real challenge isn’t finding a mentor; it’s demonstrating to the system that you’re ready for more significant responsibilities and promotions.”

While having a mentor and a sounding board is crucial, mentoring alone won’t determine your career path. It’s vital to focus on building critical experiences that pave the way for advancement.

Sandra– So if you want to reflect back and all the mentorship opportunities that you feel grateful for, what could you? What did you do at that time to get those mentors for yourself?

Ana –  Being different and coming from a unique background when I entered the Australian corporate world, specifically in a banking graduate program 20 years ago, I believed in demonstrating my worth through results and the impact I could make on my work’s quality. I embraced hard work, often putting in extra effort without additional identity burdens, which opened up opportunities that others might have missed.My dedication and results gave me access to a diverse network. I was confident in seeking help and had an insatiable thirst for learning and improvement.

“Actions often speak louder than words. My “luck” was a product of genuine efforts to make a difference and continually improve. People notice and want to help when they see your commitment to their success. It’s about earning the right to ask for help and advice when needed by consistently contributing and demonstrating your dedication.”

Sandra – The first step in seeking mentorship and support is foundational. It’s been a personal challenge for me, particularly when I made a mid-career transition to Australia. I arrived here after having a successful career in India, coaching clients and organizations that were on my wish list. I reached a point where I didn’t need feedback, as I had people working with me.However, in Australia, I became a newcomer and had to start over in my middle age. I realized it wasn’t about completely changing who I was; it was about redesigning myself. I had to step out of my comfort zone, seek feedback, and adapt to a new coaching approach. In my previous life, I never asked for mentorship, but in my new life, I had to break out of that pattern. Nobody comes to you; you have to actively seek support. Fortunately, many people are willing to help when you take that first step of asking, even though it can be challenging.

To seek mentorship, you have to place yourself in those situations and actively ask for support. However, there are internal obstacles we often encounter, like the Cinderella complex. Some of us might think, “I’ll just do good work, someone will notice me, and I’ll get my seat at the table,” which isn’t necessarily true. What are your thoughts on this Cinderella complex that some people may have?

Ana – I find it a bit challenging to relate to the Cinderella complex because I’ve always been an outsider from day one. When you carry that label, your focus shifts to fitting in, making an impact, and finding your place in the world. You don’t dwell on whether you deserve your job at a technical level.

The risk with Cinderella complexes or impostor syndrome, as some call it, is self-sabotage. It’s crucial to approach every situation rationally. If you’ve already faced disadvantages in life, avoid adding to them with self-doubt. That’s my advice.

Sandra – A brilliant point indeed. Firstly, avoid putting yourself in that cage because once you’re in, only you can let yourself out. Most of my work revolves around empowering women leaders who excel in organizations. Many face the double bind dilemma – being seen as either too soft or too aggressive. Women often receive feedback about toning down their assertiveness, a critique rarely given to male leaders.

As someone assertive and vocal, have you encountered feedback about being too assertive or aggressive? How would you advise handling this double bind dilemma?


Ana – It’s crucial to be conscious of how you present yourself and your style. However, trying to strike a perfect balance between assertiveness and not being too aggressive can be a losing battle. I’ve received feedback about speaking too little and too much, and it’s challenging to please everyone.

“On Double-Bind Dillema : My approach is not about being liked by everyone, but about being respected, leading with integrity, and staying true to my values. It’s about authentic leadership and being able to look in the mirror at the end of the day, liking the person I see. I ask myself, who do I need to thank, and who do I need to apologize to after the day I’ve had”

Sandra – I want to come back to the topic balancing work life. Are there any strategies, any insights tips you have for us?

“Ana – I’ve never believed in work-life balance. Instead, I believe in doing what suits your personal circumstances and family without apology. I’ve always loved my career, which has been a central part of my life. It doesn’t mean I love my family any less; it just means we focus on quality interactions when we’re together. Balance, to me, is when you and your loved ones are happy with the life choices you’ve made and continue to make. That’s the only balance I strive for.”

Sandra – How does one communicate that balance with work as well?

Ana – It’s crucial to aim for a job that doesn’t bring negative feelings about Sundays or Mondays. In Australia, where unemployment is low, we often have the power to choose our work environment and leaders. It’s about working in a space that motivates rather than demotivates you. The responsibility for these choices lies with the individual.

I wouldn’t work in an environment that doesn’t allow me to be authentic, and if an organization’s values don’t align with your own, focus on what you can control and lead by example to make positive changes. However, if there’s a fundamental conflict, it might be time to consider a different organization.

Sandra – what would you recommend as a good book for us to read?

Ana – I’m a fan of biographies because they reveal that even those who have achieved extraordinary success in their professional or personal lives faced steep and challenging journeys. I’ve read many biographies, but one that stands out is Otto von Bismarck’s. He unified the Prussian states into modern Germany, and his life story, tenacity, and handling of political complexity left a lasting impact on Europe, influencing the factors that led to the First and Second World Wars.

I enjoy exploring characters like Bismarck because they offer insights into the human condition, human context, and the choices people make, regardless of whether their stories are positive or negative.

Sandra – One woman role model that you will look up to.
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Ana – I look, it’s always been my grandmother. Unfortunately, she’s no longer with us. But she’s the woman that taught me the importance of Independence and the importance of education.

Sandra – How would people describe you in one word?

Ana – The kids would say the strictest mum that they know. Husband would say you need to take more time off and go to Italy or Spain on holidays. And I think colleagues and my teams would say someone that’s a transformational leader. Someone that likes to challenge the status quo? 

Sandra – And what would Ana say?

Ana – I’m passionate about building highly engaged, effective teams that make a meaningful impact. I believe in the power of small actions that can greatly affect people’s lives. That’s why I’m dedicated to serving the small business customer segment, where the decisions my teams make daily have a significant impact on many families across Australia.

Sandra – What’s the mantra you live by?

Ana – Master the art of not belonging.

I want to take this opportunity to pick up some questions from the audience as well. Why do we need to confirm when we want people to bring diversity and different ways of thinking?

Ana – I’ve mastered the art of not belonging, and it’s become my mantra. I firmly believe that diversity, including diverse experiences, thinking, cultural perspectives, socioeconomic backgrounds, educational experiences, and technical expertise, is what fosters a successful, vibrant, and progressive culture. I don’t see homogeneity as the best path forward. It’s not just about what you believe but also ensuring your actions align with those beliefs. Who you hire, fire, promote, mentor, and sponsor should all contribute to building a diverse culture and giving people opportunities.

Sandra – As a woman, how do you tune out such noises which indicate you got there because a quota had to be filled? Or was it because of hard work involved in your promotion?

Ana – I’m not a big fan of quotas for this reason. I believe in hiring based on meritocracy. However, this requires creating a system that ensures women have equal opportunities to learn, develop, and advance as men do. It’s crucial to have a strong track record of excellent performance, confidence in your abilities, and the ability to communicate this convincingly. Your elevator pitch should be punchy and based on lived experience rather than a sense of needing to justify your presence.

Sandra – how do we change from mentorship to sponsorship in organizations?

Ana – The distinction between mentorship and sponsorship is crucial. Many have asked me to be their mentor but treated it as a transactional interaction, asking a few questions over coffee and not following up. To turn a mentor into a sponsor, show that you’re gaining value, putting effort into self-improvement, and embracing feedback for continuous growth. This creates a mutual interest in your success. Authenticity, selflessness, and shared values are key. If it doesn’t click with one person, keep searching until you find someone whose approach resonates with you.

Ana – Leaders are not born, leaders are made, and they’re made by their actions and the actions around them every single day.

Sandra – On that note, wishing all of you a wonderful journey in discovering your identity and creating that identity and then dancing with it. Thank you once again, and for spending that time and sharing completely authentically. 

Ana – Thank you so much Sandra for this opportunity. And if anyone has even taken a little bit of advice or help or helpful word or two, that’s been a success.

Gatik Chaujer – Would love to get a sense of how the journey has been, like, specifically about building an effective team from the ground up? Let’s start with that.

Gaurav Agarwal – Building 1mg has been an incredibly gratifying journey. For me, the core purpose behind this startup was to build a team that embodies our collective leadership values. We strive to do the right thing every time, even if we stumble along the way. And when we make mistakes, we take responsibility and work to rectify them.

Our success and strong brand presence in the ecosystem are reflections of our leadership style and values. The journey has been both gratifying and challenging, filled with roadblocks and setbacks. But through it all, we have developed resilience and a steadfast belief in seeing things through.

Looking back to our early days, we were naive about how things worked and how to exercise effective leadership. But over the years, we have learned and grown. We have embraced concepts like radical candor and servant leadership, becoming practitioners of these principles.

It’s an ongoing struggle to build better organizations, constantly refining our approach. The journey has been full of lessons and learnings, shaping our own unique leadership style.

Gatik Chaujer – Tell us about the origins and implementation of the “Be Your Own CEO” culture within your startup’s leadership team. How do you embody this culture? Did you encounter any challenges along the way? Our viewers are eager to learn from your experiences and avoid common mistakes. Please share your insights.

Gaurav Agarwal – The “Be Your Own CEO” culture in our leadership team originated from the values we learned from past organizations that resonated with us. We realized the importance of individuals taking initiative and ownership to drive change. We wanted to create an organization where everyone feels empowered to make things happen and take accountability. However, implementing this culture came with its challenges. We had to ensure that failure was not punished but seen as an opportunity for learning and growth. We provided autonomy and decision-making authority to individuals, enabling them to make progress without unnecessary encumbrances. As the company grew, maintaining the “Be Your Own CEO” mindset became more complex, but we continued to emphasize self-conviction and humility when things didn’t work out. Another crucial aspect of our culture is valuing the team before individual contributions. We reward and recognize teams for their collective achievements, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and teamwork. We periodically reassess our values and consider incorporating additional sub-values to drive specific behaviors. For example, in our product team, we introduced the value of “quality of ideas and execution” to encourage effective ideation and swift execution.

Gatik Chaujer – Yeah, I saw that something called Done is better than perfect. Isn’t that one of your values?

Gaurav Agarwal – We have always been determined to turn our convictions into reality, even if it meant working through the night as a team. However, as we grew larger, we realized the importance of focusing on significant opportunities rather than chasing too many marginal ones. While smaller problems had a substantial impact when we were a smaller team, they may not have the same step function change in our trajectory as a larger organization. To address this, in the product team, I introduced the concept of “quality of ideas, quality of execution.” It involves assessing the value and impact of ideas before execution, without requiring approvals. The key question is whether the anticipated value was achieved through execution.

Gatik Chaujer – In building a high-performance team, startup organizations often face challenges related to hiring top talent from diverse backgrounds, resulting in a mix of individual rock stars. This diverse leadership pool can create issues with ownership, accountability, and maintaining team cohesion, often leading to situations of artificial harmony.

I’m curious to know if your organization has experienced similar challenges and how you overcame them. Could you share two or three specific tips on addressing these issues and fostering a successful team dynamic?

Gaurav Agarwal -When assembling a team of accomplished individuals, conflicts are inevitable. Hiring senior leaders comes with its challenges as they bring their own personalities and values into a new environment. I’ve learned two important lessons from our experiences. First, during interviews, it’s crucial to evaluate a leader’s personal accomplishments rather than relying solely on organizational support. Second, successful leaders avoid making immediate drastic changes and instead take the time to understand the organization’s dynamics and establish trust. Lastly, the initial team a leader works with greatly impacts their success within the first few months.

Our value of “Beyond CEO” sometimes works against us because we expect leaders to adapt quickly, but our company is no longer a small pool. It’s a challenging environment where experience navigating large organizations is crucial. Trust is vital, and our quality standards help us set the right boundaries without hindering progress. We provide feedback to keep everyone on track but allow autonomy to thrive.

Gatik Chaujer – In the startup world, there is often a conversation about trust among founders and leaders. Interestingly, while we embrace experimentation, agility, and failing fast in product development and workflow, we struggle to apply the same mindset to building relationships. Trust is seen as something that takes time, but in fast-paced organizations, we need to learn how to build trust quickly. One approach is to start with trust from day one and let it be broken if necessary. Some organizations are doing well in this regard, but it remains a challenge. What are your thoughts on this?

Gaurav Agarwal – In my early days at Zynga, I had a game producer named Blake McLaren who asked me if I gave people my trust or if they had to earn it. At that time, I arrogantly believed trust had to be earned. However, over the years, I’ve matured and now I give people my trust when they join our team. I’ve come to realize that there isn’t one right way of doing things, and trusting individuals allows the organization to evolve and discover new approaches. I now set success metrics aligned with our values and business goals, and as long as individuals meet those criteria, we don’t interfere unless they are way off track. This approach fosters better conversations and feedback, focusing on what truly matters. It took me time to learn this, but it’s an ongoing learning process for me.

Gatik Chaujer – I agree, it varies from person to person, and it’s not an easy task. However, in our coaching work with leadership teams, we emphasize that building a team of interesting individuals is a form of risk-taking. Leaders who excel at taking risks in business decisions can apply that strength to team development. Gaining an external perspective is crucial for raising awareness and facing challenges. We’ve observed that startup leadership teams dealing with issues like diversity, growth, trust, and uncertainty can become too immersed in the details. They often require an external view and a push in the right direction. That’s where coaching comes in. Coaching and training, whether internal or external, play a vital role in helping startup teams become high performers.

And from a learning standpoint, what role do you see off of leadership teams in a startup ecosystem to develop a high performance team? What role do you see coaching, training, playing in helping a startup team become a high performing team?

Gaurav Agarwal – I think it’s absolutely critical. I was exposed to coaching during my time at Zynga as a senior leader, where I had a personal coach assigned to me. Since then, I’ve recognized the importance of having a coach who can listen, empathize, and provide tools and techniques to tackle decision-making and strategies. Some may feel hesitant to seek coaching, fearing it implies a personal inadequacy, but I’ve found that a third-party perspective can effectively dissect problems and offer valuable insights. Coaches bring a wealth of diverse experiences and access to a toolkit, much like a math or physics teacher. Consistency is key, whether the coach is paid or free, mentor or friend, as it provides ongoing support and draws upon their experiences to guide discussions on organizational culture and values. At the beginning, we often prioritize business aspects over culture, but I believe getting the cultural elements right is crucial. In our case, being older founders allowed us to leverage our past experiences, and we fostered a culture of trust through open communication and transparency. Having someone who can objectively assess our actions and provide a toolkit for reflection has been incredibly valuable.

Gatik Chaujer – I encountered a situation where a high-performing team achieved remarkable results quarter after quarter. However, when we conducted a team assessment, their attention to results came out as red. This discrepancy surprised the founder, but it highlighted the need to focus on the team’s alignment with results, not just the outcomes they were achieving. This external perspective is vital.

Got an interesting question about your value – to be your own CEO. How does it work in a startup context versus being a more stable or scaled up organisation?

Gaurav Agarwal – Yeah, it’s a tough question, and I’ll be honest, it’s something we’re struggling with ourselves. But here’s my take on it: Being a CEO doesn’t fundamentally change, regardless of the size or stage of the organization. It’s about having a vision and rallying people around it. In a startup, individuals can have a direct impact and make significant changes. As the company grows, the CEO’s role shifts to influencing and convincing others to align with the vision. It’s about empowering individuals within the organization to take ownership and drive initiatives. So, while the scope of influence may change, the essence of being a CEO remains the same: leading with a clear vision and enabling others to become leaders in their own right.

Gatik Chaujer – Absolutely, I agree with you. Defining the elements of the founder’s mentality is crucial. It could include a bias for action, frontline obsession, or a focus on cash flow. Helping individuals understand and embody these aspects is key. Consensus is important, but it should align with the overall vision and purpose of the organization.

Gaurav Agarwal – You’re absolutely right. As a founder, I’ve come to realize that it’s not enough to just talk about customer obsession. I need to demonstrate it through my actions and prioritize it for my team. We often struggle to define what the founder’s mentality means and hesitate to give others the same latitude and empowerment we have. It’s important to clearly identify and define what we’re looking for from individuals and provide them with the same opportunities to embody the fundamentality we seek.

Gatik Chaujer – Maybe the last question that will take off is what is your measurement of a high performance team? How would you measure a high performance team?

Gaurav Agarwal – I’ll do my best to provide an off-the-cuff response, but it’s a challenging question. From my experience, high-performance teams exhibit strong initiative and ownership. Trust is a vital element, where team members can be candid, engage in healthy conflicts, and support one another without letting anyone fail. Additionally, these teams push each other to achieve their best, creating a sense of constant growth and energy. At one mg, we have teams that embody these qualities, and I often feel inspired and motivated by their achievements. We also encourage other teams to learn from them through internships. These values of setting high standards, fostering trust, and promoting initiative and ownership are essential in high-performance teams.

What is your measurement of a high-performing team? 

Gatik Chaujer -I’m glad that my thoughts resonated with you. When it comes to measuring the success of a high-performing team, I’ve learned that there are five key measures: trust, healthy conflict, commitment, accountability, and focus on results. By assessing these factors and tracking progress over time, we can see tangible changes and the impact of building a high-performing team. I appreciate the opportunity to share my insights, and I look forward to staying connected and discussing more about teams interning with each other.

Gaurav Agarwal – Thank you so much for having me. It was really a pleasure. Thank you so much for organizing this.