Securing stakeholder buy-in for Women Leadership Programs is critical in advancing gender diversity and promoting a more inclusive and equitable workplace. The importance of this support cannot be overstated, as executives hold the power to allocate resources, set strategic priorities, and shape organisational culture. Challenges can emerge when attempting to gain their commitment. Executives may be preoccupied with other pressing concerns, unconvinced of the business case for women’s leadership, or simply unaware of the potential opportunities.
How can People leaders build a business case for women leadership programs in their organisation? Why does women leadership continue to lag behind, what are some of the ground challenges that keep organisations from committing fully or scaling their Gender Equity efforts?
For our November 2023 edition of The Leaders’ Café, we had a special guest – Mathew Paine, a distinguished leader with over two decades of experience in human resources, organisational culture, and fostering women’s leadership. As the Executive General Manager – People & Culture at the Australian Financial Complaints Authority, Mathew is passionate about creating safe, inclusive, and productive workplaces where women can thrive and he shared some incredible insights on this topic with us.
- There are 3 key challenges for women with career progression – 1. Women have greater carrying responsibilities outside of work, therefore, it’s the woman who have to sacrifice their career for child-caring responsibilities 2. Women apply less frequently for roles than men 3 Women are more likely to doubt their skills and the chance of getting a role
- Every leader must ask – does our workforce represent the community that we serve? Australia, in particular, is a very diverse country. And if we don’t see the diversity inside the organisation, and we’re providing a service to the general population, something’s not right. So we need to start from a data-led approach to gender equity or DEI at large
- Mentorship and Sponsorship – Women are over-mentored, but they are under-sponsored, there are a lot of opportunities for women to upskill a key support that women leaders need today is to have somebody open the door, use the network and get them the position that they deserve
- Business case for Gender Equity beyond profitability – In 2024, the Workplace Gender Equality agency will be publicly publishing the gender pay gap of every organisation, not government, but all private organisations with more than 100 employees. And whilst there’s probably some, some of those organisations that do have only males at the top, and there could be females that are more junior levels that will just showcase even more the gap between the genders the pay gap between the genders. So there’s a real business benefit of making sure that organisations are, first of all measuring what the pay gap is, but then analysing their data and looking at what they can do because organisations are also going to be under stricter media scrutiny and need to be mindful of brand reputation risks they run
- With the economic slowdown and budget cuts, why organisations need to keep women leadership on their agenda – Reputation and Brand are crucial – they can have a huge impact on budgets, as well as turnover, lack of diversity and leadership can also lead to missed business opportunities. It could be a limited talent pooling or the brand and the reputation of the organisation. If it’s very male centric, that it may be that women just don’t want to go and work there. And that’s becoming more and more popular in Australia, where the employee makes a choice as to where they would like to work. And so they should, and if they’re not seeing the diversity or the ethics, or the values that they adhere to, personally, then they just won’t go there. So that’s going to have an impact also on profitability. Ultimately, shareholders, particularly for the public listed companies, they expect a shareholder expects to see not just that an organisation is producing results and profits. But more and more we’re seeing shareholders wanting to see the ethical components, as well are upheld by the boards and the CEOs of organisations.
Sandra Colhando: Thank you, Matt. I want to start with your story. You hold the Chief People Officer domain, the role and there’s so much that comes under it from employee engagement, recruitment, and retention to performance, productivity, etc. Why is DEI so important for you?
Mathew Paine: For me, it really is about creating inclusive workplaces that then create a positive brand in the eyes of consumers and employees. Research shows that having a diverse pool of talent also brings about a variety of perspectives and that really helps to foster innovation, creativity, and ultimately boosting employee satisfaction and retention. And particularly in the HR world, a lot of the metrics that we use could be around satisfaction or engagement retention. And ultimately they also lead to no greater profits. And there are certainly shareholders and boards that are very interested in in seeing those metrics.
Sandra Colhando: Beautiful. And I know you’ve had this rich two decades of experience to actually see that happen. See that fruit refine in terms of results? When we look at some data points, for example, WGEA released a data set where they say that while women make up half of employees, about 51%, only 19% of CEOs of women, why do you feel is there a gap? Or what? What can be done to bridge this gap?
Mathew Paine: Yeah, it’s an interesting conundrum. I think if we step it up, and we think about from a global perspective, the World Economic Forum, every year brings out the Global Gender Gap index. And that benchmarks the current state, in the evolution of gender parity across a number of dimensions. And I just had a look at that this week. And for 2023, the number one country in the world out of 146, that they measure is Iceland, they’re doing a huge amount of work there. Australia is ranked number 26, which for a developed country, I would hope that it’s higher than that. And looking at India, it’s 127. So there are some huge gaps there. And if things keep going, they’ve been doing this for about 10 years. At speed, it’s going to take 131 years to bridge that gap. So there needs to be some quite drastic measures and initiatives put in place. And then if we think about more, Australia, in the UK, there is a gender pay gap in Australia of over 20%, about 22.8% To be specific, and men are twice as likely to be in the top income bracket as women and about boards. Only one in five boards have gender balance. So when I was when I was working in the New South Wales Government, there was a behavioural insights project that was completed around career progression of that was in conjunction with the Public Service Commission. The results found that there were four key challenges for women with career progression. And they were that women report that there’s more barriers to career progression. That women have greater caring responsibilities outside of work, therefore, it’s the woman that work or they have to sacrifice their career for child caring responsibilities, or also women apply less frequently for roles than men. And women are more likely to doubt their skills, and the chance of getting a role. Meaning a male may see a job and think, yeah, well look I am just here, but I’m going to apply anyway. Whereas a woman from this research that we conducted, was more likely to doubt their skills. So I think if you think about all that, together, there are probably a number of factors that still are at play. And we hear a lot about bias and stereotypes. There may be lack of representation also, of females in more senior roles in organisations; therefore, women may not envisage themselves to be in those roles. It could be that there is a workplace culture, or there’s practices in place that may lead to women not wanting to do those roles. For example, if there’s a really long working hours culture, if there is inflexibility of the work structure, maybe there’s no hybrid working or a lack of flexible working, all of those things can and those practices can really impact on the way women work. And then of course, things like unconscious bias when it comes to recruitment and promotion. There was a study recently actually in Australia, where it was for people and it’s not just women, but those that are working remotely. Could be overseen or over overlooked when it comes to promotions because they’re not in the office. And I think that there’s an overlay there. And then you know, other things like work life challenges. And in Maybe there’s even a lack of accountability inside organisations, you know, not holding CEOs or boards to account. So there’s probably a lot there. But that’s, that’s what I think.
Sandra Colhando: Beautiful. I am making notes and there seems a huge laundry list of why and what is the gap. I know there is work happening but in all of this, sometimes it just feels it’s so overwhelming. Where do we start? What’s the first step we take? With your experience and the background that you have- we are looking at recruitment, productivity, looking at culture, we’re looking at accountability, what will be the first step to take to start building this culture of gender equity?
Mathew Paine: Yeah, I think, like, where we need to start is thinking about the organisation, whatever organisation it is that that our listeners are working at. And I have always asked the question – does our workforce represent the community that we serve? Australia, in particular, is a very diverse country. And if we don’t see the diversity inside the organisation, and we’re providing a service to the general population, something’s not right. So we tend to start from a data-led approach. And it’s important to understand the matrix and how many, what is the gender breakdown, there might be some other diversity, and demographics that also organisations can measure and track, and then there’s the intersectionality of those two. So, you know, that may not be that it’s just male and female. But then if we add on other intersections, like cultural and linguistic diversity, could be an employee with a disability, could be that they identify as having a different sexual orientation. So there are many different factors. But I thiny understanding the data of your workforce is important. And that also really sets the the roadmap of where it is that you would like to go, and what’s the gap, and then thinking about some initiatives of how to bridge that gap. But I think if you don’t start with some type of a benchmark, it’s you need to know where you’re going. But you also need to know where you’re starting from.
Sandra Colhando: Absolutely, you’re connection is breaking up a little bit. So I’m just quickly summarizing – what you’re sharing is, you know, we need to look at where the organisation is, how’s the organisation representative of the clients or customers they’re serving. And how can we add in the sections and the diversity and work from there? I think what connected deeply with me when you’re, when you’re sharing this is setting the roadmap firs, before we jump into various initiatives, you want to see, what’s the road map for me as an organisation, which could be very different for another organisation at the same time. And what’s my way around it? And why do I need to have that included in our values? I think when you talk about the environment and culture of an organisation; it shouldn’t just be a tick in the box. It shouldn’t be just because it makes top-line sense that’s important for business, but it needs to go much deeper to create that sense of belongingness and organisation. And the decision-makers typically have that when you say the roadmap, are the executives, are people sitting at the board at the C suite level. That brings me to the question I know in an interview with HRM, you talked about selling diversity, and equity inclusion to the C-suite as one of the most significant challenges in this field. What do you think of what key elements should, say people cultural leaders need to include in the business case for women’s leadership programme to secure executive buy-in?
Mathew Paine: Good question, I think and you touch there about organisational values. So you know, really that there is alignment to values that there is an alignment to the organizational goals and emphasise how women leadership programs can align with the broader goals of the organisation, could be around improving innovation, diversity, and market competitiveness. And also the quantifiable benefits, there’s a lot of research out there that shows that a more diverse organisation has higher profits than those that are less diverse. But I think also it’s understanding the talent pipeline that you have internally, and helping to define what those success metrics are. Anthere are’s probably there’s pros and cons to setting targets. I’ve worked in organisations that have and have not, and I’m happy to talk about that. But I think, like I’ve mentioned before, you really need to know where it is that you’re going, as an organisation, and put it in, I think we can probably see the biggest change when we do have metrics that we put in place for the C suite, the executive team. And I’ve seen also where they might receive their bonus could be tied to those or their pay increases could be tied to particular metrics. And it’s not just financial, but also diversity metrics.
Sandra Colhando: That’s interesting. And you also talked aboutthe pros and cons of setting targets. So in your lived professional experience, what could be a target that is a pro that makes sense organisation because it drives positive culture in making this change? And what could be a target? That could be a con, which you need to be careful, about because it may not be a driving impact. It’s a target, we’re moving in that direction, but it’s not driving the right.
Mathew Paine: Yes. Okay, so I’ll give you an example, when I worked in the New South Wales Government, the Premier of the State had set targets, under particular diversity targets for all employers in the public sector. So we were working towards 50% women in senior leadership roles. And then there were some other metrics for other diversity initiatives. So I think the positive there was that there was a goal, everybody knew where we were going. And those targets were set up to 2025. So it wasn’t just an immediate overnight initiative, there were, you know, well-executed planned approaches to several initiatives. But where I’ve seen these initiatives or targets fall is where the Why isn’t explained properly. Those that don’t identify in those particular demographics, then they may go for a role and feel that they didn’t get the role because of their gender or because their diversity doesn’t align with that. So I think there needs to be, you know, real merit behind recruitment and selection. But sometimes, through initiatives, particular programs that work, they can certainly help to develop people. So an example that I worked with in government was we had a few different initiatives. One was the women in the senior leadership mentoring programme. It was a specific programme, only aimed at women who had high potential to move into a leadership role. And they were mentored by another executive who had already reached that goal, who was already working at that level. And it was a 12-month programme. And it was extremely popular. We always had so many people that wanted to be on it, because they saw that there were real tangible outcomes. And it wasn’t that they were favoured, but through their mentoring relationships and also the education that they received, It helped to shape them to then on, on their own merit when they went for a role that they felt comfortable and were able to achieve the selection criteria. And another programme that we ran was the Open Doors programme and which was a career sponsorship programme. So the difference between mentoring and sponsorship is mentoring is more about being available and assisting and helping to mentor and coach whereas the sponsorship programme was opening doors, but very soon new executives, who are then able to use their own connections, to then open doors and connections to those people who were then able to grow and to develop and to really benefit from that and leverage those executives, senior leadership roles. So we certainly had great success with both of those programmes. And we’re able to see some demonstrable outcomes.
Sandra Colhando: Oh, those are great programmes you talked about, we keep talking about this, there be maybe enough mentorship, maybe women are over-mentored, but they under-sponsored. So happy to hear you talk about the open-door programme, because there are a lot of opportunities for women to upskill. But I think the biggest support that women leaders need that is to have somebody open the door, use the network, and get them the position that they deserve. What about skill building? Matt, what do you feel? Do we need a separate programme for women leaders for them to skill belt to reach those positions?
Mathew Paine: Well, the success that we had with the women in the senior leadership programme was also that every couple of months, there would be a skills development programme aimed at that cohort of women that were on the programme. So I think there was some great marriage in that, where women were able to come along and discuss some of the issues that they may be facing and hear from other women about how they’re overcoming that or in the groups that they’ve been allocated with their trainer, that they can unpack that. And some of it could be, you know, purely down to their own confidence. And other things might be around skills. But I have seen that particular programmes aimed at women have had great outcomes. Having said that, I’ve also seen other programmes where it’s mixed genders, and there are also great outcomes. So I think it will probably depend on the content of those skills programmes, but I’m certainly not adverse to them.
Sandra Colhando: Yeah, often, we are asked why we need to have a separate women leadership programme and why not a mixed gender and you’re right, there is merit for both. But I also feel they’re very unique challenges that women professionals go through, which are listed out beautifully earlier in our talk, whether it’s you know, carrying responsibilities as a doubt imposter syndrome, which sometimes a uniquely hire for that gender, and therefore having a program exclusively to take care of those challenges, helps in managing and not creating a safe space for them to feel we are not in it alone there other women professionals going through this challenge and this asset community that’s created for us to move ahead. What I wanted to talk about, and you shared some very interesting initiatives that you’ve run, especially with the NSW Government in terms of targets. What can we do when maybe you don’t have an organisation that has a very strong executive mind for women leadership? Let’s take an example. An organisation is already profitable, and doing really well. But there is very little gender balance of the leadership in the leadership’s executive C suite, how do you showcase the return on investment on women’s leadership to them?
Mathew Paine: Yeah, it’s a good question. I think, particularly these days, we’re seeing more and more media for and not always positive, sometimes negative media, where there are organisations that don’t have good gender balance or don’t have good diversity, particularly as they go higher. And especially in Australia, for the next year 2024, the Workplace Gender Equality agency will be publicly publishing the gender pay gap of every organisation, not the government, but all private organisations with more than 100 employees. And whilst there are probably some, some of those organisations that do have only males at the top, and there could be females that are more junior levels that will just showcase even more the gap between the genders the pay gap, I should say between the genders. So there’s a real business benefit of making sure that organisations are, first of all measuring what the pay gap is, but then analysing their data and looking at what they can o, because I havy no doubt that from next year, there will be quite a few media articles that will come out that won’t be positive in a variety of different organisations in Australia. But I think also, then it just goes back to thinking about Australia in particular, as well, actually, no, not just Australia, but globally, there’s an ageing population. So women’s economic workforce participation is becoming more and more important around the world. The more women that are working, and particularly moving into more senior roles, the bigger the impact it is for the economy, that of the country that they’re in, the more tax they pay, those taxes then have benefits for the whole country. So there’s, there’s real equity, measures them. And outside of that, it’s just the right thing to do. So I think from an ethical perspective, organisations these days have got a lot of measures around ethics and sustainability, and gender balance, particularly in senior roles should be on everyone’s agenda.
Sandra Colhando: While we have this coming next year, which is working around the workplace gender balance, in today’s economic conditions, and with so-called economic slowdown, organisations now are holding on to the budgets. What’s your take on the future of women’s leadership landscape, in this environment, in this mind space?
Mathew Paine: Well, look, think about reputation and brand and that can have a huge impact on budgets, as well as turnover. And lack of diversity and leadership can also lead to missed business opportunities. I know, a lot of the consulting firms these days, when they go out, and they target business projects, they do all of this analysis before they then go off and select the organisation that they might want to work with. So there’s some potential of lost business there. It could be limited talent pooling or the brand and the reputation of the organisation. If it’s very male-centric, that it may be that women just don’t want to go and work there. And that’s becoming more and more popular in Australia, where the employee chooses as to where they would like to work. And so they should, and if they’re not seeing the diversity or the ethics, or the values that they adhere to, personally, then they just won’t go there. So that’s going to have an impact also on profitability. And, yeah, I mean, ultimately, shareholders, particularly for the publicly listed companies, expect a shareholder expects to see not just that an organisation is producing results and profits. But more and more we’re seeing shareholders wanting to see the ethical components, as well upheld by the boards and the CEOs of organisations.
Sandra Colhando: Yeah, it makes sense because you’re looking at a whole rounded organisation that not just looking at profits, but looking at the culture that’s creating in the future as well, was the thread if we just continue unidirectional? How do you get executive buy-in with data? Do you feel that the onus is only on say the chief people, learning and development departments to create that buy-in? Can anyone else in the organisation play a role and how can they create that noise with executives to make this happen?
Mathew Paine: Hmm, that’s a great question. Look, it shouldn’t be led just by HR or L&D. I mean, there’s organisational initiatives. And ideally, they should be sponsored at the executive level. So where I’ve seen the biggest impact in these areas is when an organisation decides to go down this track, and they might launch, for example, a diversity, inclusion, and belonging strategy. And within that, there might be multiple silos or segments of diversity that they would like to work on. So there could be, for example, demographics of women in senior leadership, which is the topic for today, it could be people with disability, it might be LGBTQIA+ inclusion, could be other things. But then, it’s not just about having a plan on a page, it’s about bringing it to life, I would suggest that there are executive sponsors for each of those. And then within that, it’s also brought to life through the employees, what we call an employee resource group. So for example, there could be a shared agenda, a women’s employee resource group, there might be people with disability, and there could be other cohorts that those groups get together. And it’s not just about social connection, but it’s also thinking about from an organisational perspective, what can they do better? What’s their feedback? Are there policies or procedures that are getting in the way of workforce participation? Are there things that are a handler to, to the workforce? What are the other metrics, if the organisation is doing surveys, what’s the feedback from those groups being able to break down survey responses by demographic So ideally, I would see that there is executive sponsorship, employee resource groups, and an action plan that is regularly communicated back out to the organisation, and that the CEO is involved, or the most senior person in the organisation is involved in that as well.
Sandra Colhando: When you share this, is that there’s a story that came up for me when you talked about employee resource groups, especially women. And this happened around COVID, when you know, budgets were shut down organisations were not getting into investment mode. So there’s a client of ours and their organisation was severely hit by the COVID shutdown leading to budget cuts. But there was a women’s resource group that got together. So the women professionals just got together in the organisation and they decided to drive the agenda, they would fix these meetings, they would actually reach out to industry leaders, facilitators, coaches and create this once-a-month forum where they’ll invite a coach on a special topic, and they ran a program with zero budgets. Yeah, so that’s a great example of when you talked about women’s resource group, how they can gather resources and get that done. Hmm,
Mathew Paine: Yeah, totally. And I’ve seen that those grassroots initiatives where it’s not actually led by the organisation that’s led by the members of the group can sometimes have even greater impact.
Sandra Colhando: I’m seeing our questions here. So I’m going to jump right into the question especially there’s a question that resonates with the one that I had for you. Can you share a comparative view of how the public sector and private sector varies in gender representation in Australia? I think one of the past speakers mentioned that the public sector needs to up its game and has things to learn from some positive initiatives undertaken by corporate sector. Your thoughts, please?
Mathew Paine: Good question. I guess first of all, I don’t have the data right in front of me, so I wouldn’t be able to answer exactly the specifics. But what can what I can say is there were a few initiatives that were run in Australia that really helped to increase participation, particularly women in the private sector. And that was the male Champions of Change programme, which you may have heard of, and that programme really was a call out to male, particularly male sponsors and male CEOs. And looking at how they can make organisational change, that would then lead to greater female representation and the view through that initiative, which is still going. And maybe it’s not as popular as at what it was, but certainly still going, there was a very large increase of women participation, but equally in the public sector, which is where I also had experience, particularly New South Wales, when the premier set targets for 50% women in senior leadership, it really helped myself particularly as a chief people officer and in the role that I was in the executive director role also that I held, to be able to hold leaders to accountable and to say, every month, we would measure where we’re, we’re able to look at the gap, we’re able to then come up with some really meaningful programmes and regularly report that data, and how we’re increasing that data to the executive team through a monthly pack of data and metrics. And that visibility at the senior level really helps everyone to have buy-in. And, you know, I think it makes in some cases, it might make it easier when you’ve got you’ve got that real push, particularly when we’re getting close to achieving that. So I think in the end, where you’ve got leaders, most leaders, particularly doesn’t matter what industry, private or public would want to achieve targets. So there’s that old saying what gets measured gets done or variations of it. But I think that that helps.
Sandra Colhando: That’s a brilliant example of how you get executive buy-in, because you have a target come from an executive or come from the top, and you actually measure it and continue in that direction. Yeah, and what gets measured gets seen as well.
Mathew Paine: There is probably one more thing on that topic. It was important for us as well to really highlight and demonstrate particular days of significance in the calendar year. So International Women’s Day is one that comes to mind. And on International Women’s Day, every year, we would hold an event, it was for all genders, not just women, but we would highlight and we’d have normally a panel of female leaders, successful female leaders that would talk about their leadership journey, their struggles in how it is that they might be able to juggle work with family, and any other things that they might want to talk about and really showcase their story. Because then other female leaders and other females can aspire and learn from those. So having those real-life stories and bringing those days of significance to life, I I find that helps a lot.
Sandra Colhando: Absolutely. I’m going to go to the next question – What role do emerging women leaders play in achieving gender diversity?
Mathew Paine: I think that everyone has a part to play in this and those that have succeeded and got already achieved those female leadership roles. They should also be helping the pipeline or talent behind them. Because and I see this and it’s not just in female leadership, but all levels of diversity. That if everyone helps to pave that, that journey forward, it’s going to make it easier and more acceptable for those who are still aspiring to go through that journey. So for them to be able to use their experience, maybe talk about what worked well for them, and what didn’t work well. Being a mentor, and being available to coach other people that might want to aspire. Everyone has a part to play and and hopefully they can use their own experience to help others.
Sandra Colhando: Yeah, I think that’s linked to the next question. From your experience, Matthew, what us some of the top three skills that were in professionals can build or work towards to becoming a strong contender, contender for the top positions?
Mathew Paine: Oh, that’s a hard one. There are so many amazing skills that are out there. Look, I always say to anybody, if they would like to move up the ladder, it’s thinking about their curiosity, their innovation, but also, going for a more senior role is not just about technical skills. It’s about people leadership, and it’s about relationships, negotiation, it’s about how to navigate difficult decisions. So it’s, you know, focusing on what’s probably traditionally called maybe those softer skills. Because it’s not just about the hard skill of doing your job leaders have to be able to really have that emotional intelligence to be able to deal with many different scenarios. So having that that level of, of skill is important. But I think look, it probably also depends on the role that they’re going for, but certainly people leadership, I’d be looking if someone’s going for a leadership position, ideally, that they’ve done some type of other mentoring coaching or leadership, it could be an in an external voluntary role, or it might be something else.
Sandra Colhando: Yeah, I was looking at when you talked about E, I am looking at E IA, it is having emotional intelligence and action. Sometimes we have emotional intelligence, we know what’s happening, but the action gets missed. And that’s where true change comes. And that’s why we drive that change is still an experiment, failures, shouldn’t be a roadblock. But just to try more aspects, more doors, one door closes, how do we open the next door? Yeah,
Mathew Paine: That’s right. You mentioned before about imposter syndrome. And I think like, that’s common for many people. In that they may not, they may not think of themselves as the best person for the role that they’ve got to the role and that they’re doubting their own skills and experience. And I think it is normal. But having, not letting it become so debilitating, that you can’t actually then perform in the role and action.
Sandra Colhando: in this section, I do want to share my own personal take on impostor syndrome, because I had a lot of impostor syndrome. There are many opportunities, I didn’t raise my hand, early in my career, and I missed many opportunities. They’re, they’re funny stories now. But they weren’t that time, and I missed it. But this is what I tell myself to overcome impostor syndrome is saying that there is no rule ever, I’d be perfect for, especially in this uncertain environment, that we are working and then uncertain world that we are in, we will never be perfect in any role, because you don’t have control of what happens externally. So knowing that and then jumping into that situation, raising your hand for that opportunity is the best thing you can do for yourself and for the road that you take. And that’s my little tip on how I overcame it. Before we wrap up, we have a minute to go. I’m going to take up the last question – Are there unique considerations or challenges in gaining executive buy-in from leadership in a global context? And how can these be addressed?
Mathew Paine: Hmm, yeah, that’s a it’s a deep question. And I think definitely, in a global context, there are unique circumstances and that would come down to the cultural have elements of that country. If I talk about it, from my experience in the Western world, certainly in Australia, I’ve worked in roles that also cover New Zealand and the UK or worked in London for eight years. I think these days, it’s definitely more and more accepted. And it’s not just accepted, it’s actually expected that organisations have that cultural and gender diversity. But having said that, there’s there’s countries that are still out there in the world that have got a long way to go. So, you know, I can’t probably comment so much about those countries. But, you know, certainly being able to focus on the ones and the initiatives that work is something that I would focus in, probably just express that. Yes, in some countries, there’s a long way to go. But I’m hoping that, you know, what, take that 131 years that what I mentioned at the start with the World Economic Forum data.
Sandra Colhando: Yeah, I believe that’s a good start point. And what you shared so far, and, of course, it’s a call for action in any country talk about results, you talk about innovation, creativity, bias, etc. It’s common, but I think the cultural aspect if we have storytelling that’s associated with it, which is unique to your culture, showcasing those stories, this case studies, I think that creates that uniqueness in each culture. Thank you, Matt, for these rich insights for our team. And thank you, everyone who’s been listening and we’ll be seeing the recording as well. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for being there. We’ll be back next month for another interesting topic. Get ready for the holidays and enjoy the next few weeks. Thank you everyone.
Mathew Paine: Thank you. Thanks, Sandra. Thanks, everybody.